Texas Delegate Process

Since I detailed the Texas delegate selection process last Tuesday night, there's been a slow awakening to the facts on the ground here. The WPost reports this morning that the Clinton campaign is raising concerns that the process is tilted against her expected (and unproven) advantage among Hispanic voters.

At issue is the apportionment of delegates. They are apportioned by state senate district, based upon turnout in the two previous election cycles. Because Hispanic turnout in 2004 and 2006 was way down, a costly turn of events for Democrats, Hispanic-heavy senate districts don't get as many delegates. The system is intended to reward participation in elections.

It has taken a very unusual and unexpected turn of events to make these rules -- in effect now for a couple of decades -- controversial. As it turns out, turnout in 2004 and 2006 was highest in areas where Barack Obama is expected to do well. So those areas have more delegates than areas with poor turnout records. Hence, the controversy. If Obama is doing well where there are more voters, well, there's not much for his opponents to complain about in that, beyond saying they wish it wasn't so.

Before anyone gets too outraged over this, they should examine the issue all the way down.

The Texas delegate formula disproportionately rewards areas where there have been more Democratic voters participating in general elections. The primary election goes to where the voters are.

Because the Clinton campaign apparently believes their candidate will end the campaign closer to Obama in the popular vote than in the delegate count, they have begun to question the fairness of pledged delegates, period. This is a smart public relations strategy, but it's a little situational.

The Clinton argument is aimed at persuading the superdelegates, whom they hope will ignore the pledged delegate count. But how do you make an ethical case against the voter-selected pledged delegates, whatever the process, if you are going to rely on delegates chosen by no voters whatsoever?

There is a case to be made that delegates should be apportioned without regard to previous elections. But even this has deep structural and mathematical problems. I won't rehearse all those problems here, but read William Poundstone's new book, Gaming the Vote: Why Elections Aren't Fair. Plurality voting is the least fair voting arrangement we could devise, says Poundstone, basing his conclusion on the famous Arrow Impossibility theorem and decades of voting research.

Whatever the outcome, the news is good for Texas. The massive increase in turnout for the Democratic primary is a boon to Texas progressives, no matter which way you cut it. The record is 1.8 million, achieved 20 years ago. Some say we may have 3 million voters this year.

But the good news is that Texas democrats, with discipline and commitment, have been busy building a new infrastructure from the ground up. This time, we are positioned to capitalize on the enthusiasm for both Clinton and Obama. From a state-of-the-art voter file, to a sophisticated and energetic state blogosphere, to the recruitment of highly qualified and attractive candidates at all levels, to the building of a research and message infrastructure that benefits all progressives, to the cooperation among traditional constituent groups and new, vital grassroots and fundraising organizations -- we are ready.

Ten years ago a unique Democratic turnout event would have paid no dividends much beyond the year in which it happened. Ann Richards win in 1990 paid no long term benefit because no one believed in building and sustaining an ongoing grassroots organization.

The Democratic nominee for president should take a lesson from this. If you make it to the White House, don't let the enthusiasm among the voters of your party dissipate.

Ask not what your party can do for you, but what you can do for your party.

Right now, the enthusiasm level is high among both Clinton and Obama supporters. Not only that, but I see little of the rancor that we see nationally. For the most part, we're all just advocating for and working for the candidate we support. No blog fights or shouting matches. I don't think anyone's signs have been stolen yet. It is all very civil.

There are still no solid, reliable public polls. This election is close. The popular vote could go either way. Accurately modeling the turnout is all but impossible. For instance, responsible estimates of the Hispanic turnout range from 25 percent of the electorate to 40 percent of the electorate. That's a big range.



Display:


The 2008 cycle will provide source material (2.00 / 1)

for a great many PhD dissertations in political science.

I can predict that with great confidence.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:11:14 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (2.00 / 2)

I don't understand the Clinton campaign.

1) They should have known about these rules LONG AGO.  

2) If they had a problem with them, say, in August of 2007, it still may have been too late to change the process (with a Republican Gov and Legislature) and perhaps too late for a court challenge, but that would have been the time to do it, if not earlier.

3) The rules are unfair, but everyone is playing by the same rules.  You essentially have two states voting in Texas:  The Texas Primary and the Texas Caucus.  This would be MUCH better messaging from the Clinton campaign-- then they could tout winning the Texas "primary" regardless of the delegate count.  Instead they are nitpicking the rules.  

You know what those superdelegates are thinking?
"Why the hell didn't you know about these rules a long time ago?!"


Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:16:11 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (2.00 / 1)

They didn't plan a good campaign, and instead relied upon their hubris-filled presumption of victory to carry them.  Now the chickens are coming home to roost...


by Cycloptichorn on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

And now the best they can do is to complain about Obama using similar language to Deval Patrick -- after Clinton used the same words as Patrick's critics.


by mainelib on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Should Have Known... (none / 0)

I'd be willing to bet that many did.  The stories I've read don't really identify exactly who was supposedly surprised by these rules apart from some of her fundraisers.  

I have a really hard time imagining that those running the show didn't know this stuff.  

Then again, I was more than a little surprised at Maggie Williams' 20/20 hindsight comments about (paraphrasing) 'maybe we shoulda campaigned in those small states afterall.'


by Brillobreaks on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (2.00 / 1)

To judge from this post and Hilzoy's/Publius's over at Obsidian Wings, this is yet another example of the Clinton campaign being under-organized and under-prepared, which I find surprising given how much they've spent on strategic analysts like Mark Penn.  It seems that they're just coming to understand the delegate distribution issues this week, well after explicit analyses were published at Burnt Orange Report and Daily Kos using the first post-Potomac polls out of the state last week.

The Obama campaign, meanwhile, was giving Powerpoint presentations about the nuances of delegate distribution in its Texas offices more than a week ago.


by Nissl on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:40:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Penn's Pay... (2.00 / 1)

Probably could have put enough field offices and staff in the dozen or so small states they skipped to tie them up, maybe even win them.  Instead though... they got lots of good advice from Penn, and Obama won by those states by +20% margins...  Still amazes me weeks later.


by Brillobreaks on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (2.00 / 2)

Are they trying to change the rules, though, or just massage expectations?  If the former, yes, they are being hypocritical.  If not, it's nothing more than the usual gaming about superdelegates that has been in vogue lately.  I would agree, though, that it would be stunning if the Clinton campaign didn't understand the Texas procedures before now.  Ready on day one?


by rfahey22 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

how many more times can expectations be massaged...

I agree, Team Clinton appears to be laying the groundwork to say that a Texas tossup or even loss wasn't unexpected...

but after SuperTuesday, Team Clinton blew the month of February off and talked of taking the campaign to March 4th...

Feb was "unimportant"

Is Texas now becoming "unimportant"

Granted Mark Penn says that winning contests is unimportant but this is nuts.

Ready on Day One was supposed to imply competence...  I'm seeing anything but from Team Clinton.  


by its simple IF you ignore the complexity on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 03:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Torn... (none / 0)

On the one hand, it really makes me feel good about this country that we have such a totally diverse set of election practices and traditions.  It really is cool that we've gotten this done for centuries.  Counties, states, parties, all the way up choosing their own way to elect our leaders.  

At the same time though... some of these systems are just stupid.  And a lot don't even remotely resemble Democracy.  

It'll be interesting to see how many people will step up and do anything about it after all is said and done.  Cause right now efforts from all sides are clearly going to be biased, nevermind simply being wrong- you don't change the rules mid game.

A year and a half from now, are our blog going to be lobbying for reform?  To do away with caucuses?  To close them to republicans?  To get rid of superdelegates?  To set a more sane primary calendar?

I hope so, but I somehow doubt it.  This stuff comes up every election, and disappears shortly afterwards.


by Brillobreaks on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:29:38 PM EST

Re: I'm Torn... (none / 0)

It's not to early to spitball reform ideas.  I'd say move every race to a semi-open primary (independent support is important!), put 3-4 rotating small to mid-size states in an early mix with IA and NH (so that underfinanced candidates can compete), with maybe 1 state a week, then have groups of 3-5 states go every week or two.  Rotate the states each election cycle so everyone gets a turn to have some influence.  Thoughts?


by Nissl on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (2.00 / 1)

The problem is, there is nothing unique about Texas's giving more delegates to districs with more democratic voters.  That is how the whole system works, isn't it?  For example, Massachusetts has 93 pledged delegates, New Jersey has 107, and Georgia has 87.  But Georgia is the most populous state of all three.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/r anks/rank01.htm

I assume that Georgia has the fewest delegates because there are fewer democrats there, right?

I am tired of the Clinton campaign complaining selectively about rules that don't help them.  It's one thing to take a principled position on rules.  but to just pick and choose is bullshit.  And if they thought certain rules were unfair, they should have said so before the election started.


by snaktime on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:42:02 PM EST

Number of state delegates (none / 0)

    From a pdf: State Delegate Apportionment.  The number of delegates that each state may send to the  Democratic National Convention is based on a complex formula.   Each state is entitled  to a base number of delegates determined by a state's relative population, plus bonus  Delegates for electing Democratic officeholders.  For example, if a state has a  Democratic governor and a Democratic U.S. Senator, then that state gets extra delegates  to the National Convention.  Thus, in 2008, Illinois will have extra delegates to the  Democratic National Convention because it has a Democratic Governor and two  Democratic U.S. Senators in Congress.  See Table 1D for the apportionment of state  delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention.    
http://roadtowhitehouse.wiu.edu/sessionO verviews/PDFs/Session_1D_Overview_Roles. pdf
by MarvToler on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number of state delegates (none / 0)

Thanks Marv.  I think this illustrates my point.  Even though New Jersey and Georgia have nearly equal populations (actually Georgia's is slightly higher), NJ gets over 20% more delegates than Georgia on account of having a Dem Gov and Dem Senators.

How is that different from the Texas apportionment  that the Clinton campaign is attacking?  Should Obama start complaining about the state-to-state distribution of delegates?  


by snaktime on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Superdelegates (none / 0)

Are elected.

You say delegates "chosen by no voters whatsoever."

But there has been emerging realization that rather than a scary, back room population of unaccountable party insiders, instead the superdelegates are grass roots activists, elected officials, and other party leaders who have earned their position through years and even decades of service to the party.

All the superdelegates have their position because they were chosen by voters -- every single on was elected to the position within the party or the government.

They may not have been chosen as delegates SPECIFICALLY because of who they support in this Presidential election, but they were chosen nonetheless.

It is unfair and untrue to say they are unelected.


by rcipw on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:42:41 PM EST

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

Something like 60% of them are just party officials.  If they were elected, they were elected at some lightly attended democratic party event that makes a caucus look like a national general election.


by snaktime on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

Elected by other members of the Democratic Party.  The people who act as the state "pledged" delegate contingent are elected, too.  If you want to carry the argument to its ultimate conclusion, you could say that the "elected" superdelegates could potentially overturn the choice of the "elected" pledged delegates, as well as the popular vote.


by rfahey22 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

The point stands -- they are elected.


by rcipw on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

And hey, the superdelegates are going to "elect" who they will vote for, so that's an election too.

Semantic arguments are kind of silly you know?


by snaktime on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

It's not semantics.

All delegates to the national convention are chosen by the party rank and file.  There are just different ways that will is filtered up to select/elect the national delegates.

Superdelegates INCLUDED, the national convention delgates reflect our party and who shows up to participate in the process.


by rcipw on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

The point is that they were not "elected" to their positions as superdelegates as an extension of popular sentiment.  When people say that the superdelegates were not "elected," they mean that they are a group of party officials who have no obligation to respect the will of the people.  However you seek to characterize them - as grassroots activists, party officials, etc. - doesn't change the fact that because of their unique positions within the party hierarchy, they may potentially nullify the popular choice for the nomination.  


by rfahey22 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

As I already said: just because the superdelegates were not SPECIFICALLY chosen because of who they support for the nomination, it does not mean they weren't selected as "extension of popular sentiment."

The members of Congress and governors were certainly elected as part of popular sentiment, as were the former presidents, vice-presidents, speakers, and majority leaders.

And how do you think the DNC members and party chairs are selected?  By the state convention delegates chosen by the party membership and caucus attendees.  Wow, that sounds almost exactly like how the "pledged" delegates are selected.  Amazing.  Not much difference.

Now you could argue that because they were not SPECIFICALLY selected because of their presidential preference that they are illegitimate/un-democratic.

But to top that -- they are accountable.  I fully expect to see some of them held accountable if they chose 'wrongly' with how they may vote.  Certainly there are democratic processes in place to put pressure on them NOT to void the popular will.

If you or anyone else doesn't like how they behave, then run against them next time.

You could also argue that the party's presidential nomination should be a function of direct democracy.  BUT, that is not the process we have.  We have a representational selection process.  As some have pointed out, even the "pledged" delegates are not necessarily reflective of the popular will of their states.

We have a mish-mashed, representational nominating process, but except for the 10 or so elders of the elders, all of the delegates have been chosen by the Democratic base and our accountable to the rank and file.


by rcipw on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

Fine.  Look, your contention that the superdelegates are all elected and accountable is ultimately just plain silly.  But even if you disagree, the point of your argument - that it's okay if the superdelegates diverge en masse from the pledged delegate total - is going no where.  There is zero chance the superdelegates will buck the pledged delegate total unless the pledged delegate margin is a virtual tie.  Clinton has to catch up  a whole bunch in pledged delegates before this superdelegate stuff becomes anything more than fun wonkishness.

Just observe the recent comments of Charlie Rangel and John Lewis if you don't believe me.  Even those Clinton supporters are saying they won't overturn the popular vote.  And what do you think Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi etc will do?  Those leaders will unite and snuff out any effort to decide the election by a big superdelegate margin that goes against the pledged delegate outcome.  

What upsets me most is the Clinton supporters who would be willing to rip the party apart to get their candidate to win by this rules-challenging, superdelegate garbage.  I'm an Obama supporter and I don't want either candidate to win that way.  If Clinton can mount a huge comeback and take the pledged delegate lead I'll be right there backing her with the superdelegates.  But this "attack the process" nonsense from her is just crap and its terrible for the party.


by snaktime on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

Actually, my point is that because the superdelegates are accountable and elected, there is  no chance they will overturn the popular will of their constituencies.  So we agree.


by rcipw on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

Well, there we have it!


by snaktime on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 06:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

Not necessarily. Many were once elected to other offices, but are no longer elected to offices of any kind. They just once held an office of some sort.


by Glenn Smith on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Superdelegates (none / 0)

This distinction is limited to former U.S. Presidents, Vice Presidents, speakers of the house, Democratic leaders of the house/senate and former DNC chairs.

Currently, that is 9 people. Out of 799.


by rcipw on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

Unproven advantage among Hispanic voters? Wrong. Clinton has a proven advantage among Latino voters everywhere there are large Latino communities.


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:48:56 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

The confusion here is that Obama won the hispanic vote during last week's Potomac primaries.

However, my understanding is that the Hispanic population in those states is primarily of central and south American origin, whereas Clinton is still believed to lead strongly among Hispanics of Mexican heritage.


by rcipw on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

Clinton consistently leads wherever there is a significant Latino population. They have split the vote in places where there are small Latino populations (i.e., no large latino "community").


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

Illinois has a significant Latino population doesn't it?

Also, Obama won 53% of the Latino vote in Connecticut (compared to 43% for Clinton).  This is not an insignificant population, as around 10% of the population is Latino (meaning around 350,000).  


by telephasic on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

CT exit polls showed 6% Latino vote. (Funny how you knew the exact vote %, but not the % of population). And among the 5% that are actual Democrats, she got 54% to his 45%.

IL is his home state, so it doesn't really count as far as trends go. But they split the Latino vote (17%) there with Obama at 50%, Clinton 49%, which means he did much worse with Latinos than he did statewide. Again, among Latino Democrats (15%), she got 51% to his 48%.


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nope. (none / 0)

Latinos are much more diverse than that.  Where they (and/or their family) are from, how long their families have been here, how old the population is... all have huge effects on who they're voting for.  The two candidates have split the vote several times now.  


by Brillobreaks on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. (none / 0)

They have only split in places without a lot of Latinos. Clinton consistently wins the Latino vote where there are many Latinos.


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

keep adding qualifiers (none / 0)

that way it will always be true, no matter what happens.


by Teaser on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: keep adding qualifiers (none / 0)

No qualifiers. Large Latino population = Clinton. Small Latino population = Split.


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: keep adding qualifiers (none / 0)

So Obama doesn't have the support of any "significant" Latinos, is what you're saying?

California and Nevada. Two data points does not a trend make.


by EMTP democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

what exactly is the purpose of this site, at this moment?
!
by alex100 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:54:37 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

Hillary spin.


by crackerdog on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

obviously. it would be nice to get real issues back into these pages and relax on the damn hillary spin. How about what's going on downticket? FISA? Torture? Steroids in MLB (okay, not MLB). hell, objective postings would be a nice start instead of cherry picking whatever b.s. can be found and trying to find the right angle to pounce on Obama and rejoice the word of Hillary. if this is all MyDD has to offer come the GE, this site is in trouble of being shallow at its best and downright damaging to the progressive cause at worst (especially if Obama does in fact win the nomination).
!
by alex100 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 03:51:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

And the oldest Hispanic Democratic group in TX just endorsed Obama: http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=645#mo re-645


by mainelib on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 12:54:53 PM EST

Burnt Orange Report resources (2.00 / 2)

Thanks, Glenn, for this post. You've done a great job sharing with MyDD folks the TX process.

For those who haven't seen it, we've been doing a lot of work at Burnt Orange Report on the primary races (BOR is among the highest trafficked political blogs in TX -- you'll see us popping up here and there). To supplement Glenn's post, I wanted to offer some resources for those that want to learn more about the process:

Explanation of the Delegate Process, Part 1
Explanation of the Delegate Process, Part 2
TX Superdelegate Watch
How Obama Can Win Texas
Clinton Up 49-41 in Texas Poll; Obama May Win More Delegates
Our Response to the WashPost Story

--Phillip Martin, Senior Adviser, Burnt Orange Report


Now a very great man once said that some people rob you with a fountain pen.
by Phillip Martin on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:12:09 PM EST

Re: Burnt Orange Report resources (none / 0)

And thanks to you and BOR for the encyclopedia. Actual real knowledge is being distributed and understood. It's a revolution.

Thanks again!


by Glenn Smith on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nobody should be outraged (none / 0)

It is clear that reform is necessary, no question about that.  But this goes back to leadership.  Somebody who is forward thinking.  Someone who knew to not back the Iraq war when that was the most unpopular thing to do.  After Obama decided to become president, he actually did the reseach as to what that would take to win.  I imagine he researched the Texas demographics and delegate issue and factored that into his equation.  He didn't say, oh, that's unfair, nobody should have that advantage,  he played by the rules that were in place and now is in position to TAKE the majority of delegates in Texas.  Why didn't Clinton do this same stragetic forward thinking? I just don't get the feeling that her judgement and the people that are surrounding are very good this time around the Clintons' nominating process.


by petercjack on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:15:36 PM EST

Speaking of Superdelegates.HRC vs. Rangel? Uh-oh (none / 0)

***Hillary Rodham Clinton backer RANGEL sides with OBAMA! -- Newsday, "No convention duel: Hillary allies rap her tactic to rely on superdelegates," by Glenn Thrush and James T. Madore: "Harlem Rep. Charles Rangel -- one of Hillary Clinton's most stalwart African-American defenders -- is apparently questioning her reliance on unelected superdelegates to stay competitive with Barack Obama, saying they may not reflect the 'will' of Democratic voters. 'It's the people [who are] going to govern who selects our next candidate and not superdelegates,' Rangel said last night at a dinner for the New York State Association of Black and Puerto Rican Legislators conference in Albany. 'The people's will is what's going to prevail at the convention and not people who decide what the people's will is,' he added."


by a gunslinger on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:17:43 PM EST

Re: Speaking of Superdelegates. (none / 0)

It would make sense that some superdelegates would be offended that they are continually counted in a candidate's delegate totals, when the rules make clear that they can switch their minds before the convention.


by rfahey22 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:21:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

What the Clinton campaign is doing - finally - is shedding light on the caucus process. This helps counter the  Obama campaign's  "inevitably" narrative being driven by the will of all voters.

As a result it leaves room for the super delegates to vote in the actual best interests of the party.


by cath on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:21:45 PM EST

Caucuses... (2.00 / 1)

Hillary would most likely have won them if she had actually organized and campaigned in the states that had them, and her campaign has acknowledged exactly that.  One of those 20/20 hindsight things.  All she can do now is try spinning it.


by Brillobreaks on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Caucuses... (none / 0)

I agree.  I think the Clinton campaign made a big mistake there.

--sam


by samizdat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nobody should be outraged (2.00 / 1)

If you look at the amount of allocated Pledged Delegates nationwide, vs popular vote, Clinton actually comes out about 20 delegates ahead of where she would be if there were strictly handed out proportionally to the vote on a state by state basis. In other words, to date, the system has slightly favored her.

Data and analysis via the always awesome Poblano diary on dKos


by tysonpublic on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:23:36 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

Excellent explanation of the process and how it should be viewed by the rest of the world. Could it be that the political spin cycle is finally ending?


Mike Chapman
by Mike Chapman on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:35:37 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (2.00 / 1)

Wait a minute, do the Texas delegates even "count"?

Per the Politico:

A co-chairman of Hillary's Michigan campaign and  has a line that's sure to drive a whole bunch of red state governor's up the wall:

"Superdelegates are not second-class delegates," says Joel Ferguson, who will be a superdelegate if Michigan is seated. "The real second-class delegates are the delegates that are picked in red-state caucuses that are never going to vote Democratic."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 208/Secondclass_delegates.html

Isn't Texas a red state that has a quasi-caucus system?


by rfahey22 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:43:34 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

Please tell me a Sr. Adviser for ANY national campaign didn't say something that asinine!

Please.


I CAN HAZ BAHROCK DONASCHON?
by kasjogren on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

He really said that? Did they fire him?


by EMTP democrat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:57:49 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

The Clinton's have campaigned in Texas before under the same rules. They're only bringing it up now to spin the results.

Hillary cannot get the big lead she needs from Texas to keep her campaign viable. She will have to say "it's not fair" again. Although I don't know who will buy it.

Every Super delegate down to last voter understands that Hillary and Obama have campaigned under the same rules all along. (Oh, except for Michigan and Florida, where Hillary campaigned with herself.)


by platy on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:19:20 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

Just another case of Hillary trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.  


by crackerdog on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:55:32 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

The Clinton campagin can make noise about the popular vote, but how do we measure the popular vote, given that many states select their nominee by caucus?  Is it even possible to come up with an accurate tally of the popular vote?


by global yokel on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 03:24:19 PM EST

Per CNN, the race is tied (none / 0)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/18/p oll.texas/index.html

Which means she'll lose the delegate count, if this talk of weighting things is accurate.

Chalk up yet another meaningless state for Obama, I guess.  AAAAAAHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA!!!!


by crackerdog on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:45:43 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

>The Texas delegate formula disproportionately rewards areas where there have been more Democratic voters participating in general elections. The primary election goes to where the voters are.

Well, except nationally Obama's lead is based mostly on states that the Dems are (to put it mildly) extremely unlikely to win in November. Outside of Texas the system has been gamed so that the will of Democratic voters (who prefer Hillary by significant margins) has been ignored.

But hey, if Obama loses the election to McCain because of Florida, Ohio, and PA, at least we'll be able to say the primary system was fair to Democratic voters in Texas.


by tdraicer on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:15:06 PM EST

Re: Texas Delegate Process (none / 0)

>The Clinton campagin can make noise about the popular vote, but how do we measure the popular vote, given that many states select their nominee by caucus?  Is it even possible to come up with an accurate tally of the popular vote?

Oh I'm sure if Obama is leading you'll think of a way.

Well, politics is politics. It's the self-righteous hypocrisy of so many Obama supporters that grates. There isn't a position they hold on the primary process they wouldn't reverse in an instant if they needed to to win the nomination. The same is undoubtedly true of Hillary, but only the Obama camp pretends they represent some new super-virtuous politics, rather than the only kind of politics that exist: the political kind.


by tdraicer on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:19:25 PM EST


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