Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession

As the Texas returns came in last night I listened to the political professionals in the room with me analyze the results. The consensus was that Barack Obama had failed to counter-attack, giving Hillary Clinton an open-field advantage the final weekend of the campaign. This is smart, if conventional, politics.

But I was distracted by thoughts of my own highly-emotional advocacy for Obama over the last few days and weeks. I have my reasons for supporting Obama, but I'm not going to revisit them here, except that I will make one positive observation of his character in order to make a larger point about the difficulty of acting with honor and respect in contemporary campaign settings. First, my confession.

As this presidential primary has unfolded, I found myself more and more strident and less and less thoughtful about the race. I've been in politics a long time, and I'm competitive. Competition, athletes tell us, can put them in a performance zone that makes them better. But my stridency was not making me better. It was making me unhappy. It was clouding my judgment. It wasn't making anyone around me happy or more thoughtful either.

The presidential primary is about to test us all in this regard, whichever side we may be on. One great difficulty is, attack politics works. Unless I'm wrong, it's about to get even more aggressive and more negative as Obama and Clinton use the proven tactic of negative campaigning against one another. I don't think anything can stop it; as a professional, I couldn't in good faith give either one of them the advice to lay off the attacks. Attacks work.

I am assuming Obama held back before March 4 because he thought he could eke out a victory in Texas and enhance his arguments with super delegates that Clinton, by attacking him, was threatening Democrats' chances for victory in November. I have no inside information. It's just my guess. But now Clinton (for strategic reasons) has proved, once again, that negative campaign tactics have their desired effect. I am not critical of that decision. It worked.

More below.

Here's the part about Obama's character, about honor and respect. In my conversations last night, many suggested -- and I heard my friend Paul Begala repeat this on CNN -- that Obama should have immediately fired the staffer alleged to have given the "wink-wink" to Canadian government officials with regard to NAFTA. This is also conventional and smart advice, advice that Obama didn't follow.

Now it turns out that the NAFTA story was a fraud. Had Obama acted as most professionals would have advised him to act, he would have acted without honor. I commend him for choosing honor over political expediency.

My point is that our contemporary political practices force upon us tactics and strategies that are without honor, that disrespect voters, that threaten the substance of our political negotiations with one another. I wrote a whole book, the Politics of Deceit, about this once.

But, if in the course of a hard-fought campaign, I forget my own advice and let my stridency get the better of me, how can I possibly ask others to do differently? Combine that with the obvious political advantages of deceit, deception and attack politics, and how do we escape the bind?

That's a big question. One answer is to pursue, as best we can, an honorable course, in our conversations and our campaigning. Muddle through. Another will involve the development of more personal, engaging politics, something that diminishes the impact of politics-at-a-distance, of the dominance of television advertising and sound-bite politics. This sounds so pie-in-the-sky I almost can't write it.

Meanwhile, I'll try to follow the example of honor, and respect those of you who disagree with my preference this year.



Display:


Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 3)

How exactly did she go negative ?

I know that is the talking points coming from Obama and his supporters but I would like to know exactly what you mean by she went negative .

If you can cite an example , it would be great


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:39:00 PM EST

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 2)

She did go negative, but to be frank, if they can't handle her using the most basic of negative campaigning, there is no way in hell they should be running in the GE. It's really that simple.


by bruh21 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

Hillary DID NOT "go negative" and it's ridiculous for people to claim otherwise. Pointing out the differences between yourself and your opponents is what politics is all about. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get the hell out of the kitchen if they can't take the heat.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

Why did her campaign call it the kitchen sink strategy?  She threw everything she could at him.  That was the point of it.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Just because the NYT quotes one anonymous low level aide doesn't make it the mantra of the entire campaign.

Last night Pulitizer Prize winnner and Cleveland Plain Dealer columnist Connie Schultz said her inbox was flooded with vulgar profanities from "Hillary Haters" from Obama's campaign. Do they all speak for the Obama campaign?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:14:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

"The kitchen sink?" What, "competence", "national security", NAFTA?  Sorry, that's called politics (and the most mild form).  The Drudge picture was denied and rejected by Clinton- I bet that was a Republican submission.  What else?  I just don't see it.
This is clearly a case of Obama not making a strong case to the people of those states.  Come on- he outspent her 3 to 1!! It was about the message- his has been "change", hers has been "competence"- rightly or wrongly it seems as though voters wanted more "meat on the bone".  I don't think his obtuse "change" message is resonating as strongly with blue-collar workers as it is with more liberal voters.  That seems to be the case in a lot of these states.
The NAFTAgate thing was, at best, a lack of "controlling the story".  I don't know enough about the issue to call it true or false, but I know that he lost the PR war on that one.  

by easyE on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

Saying something negative about someone is going negative. You make the assumption that going negative is a bad thing. I don't think it is. In fact, I think any candidate who doesn't go negative is delusional. Politics is about defining yourself in the positive, and your oponent in the negative. This whole discussion is idiotic. There is nothing wrong with going negative, but that's what is implicit in this "where did she go negative?" Rather than debating the reality - simply say "good for her" it shows she wants to win. i don't get this tying one hand behind the back approach to politics at all.


by bruh21 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

I disagree with you on a micro level but agree with you on the macro level.

By your definition of negative campaigning ALL political messages are negative.

But on the macro level, you're right that negative campaigning isn't inherently a bad thing. Any time a candidate runs for office they're saying they are the best person for the job, better than someone else.

Every time they make the argument for themselves they're implicitly making the argument against the other person.

When Obama says "I represent change" he's implying that other candidates don't. When Clinton goes I have the experience to be President she's really saying "other candidates don't have it or at least s much as me"

So yes its silly to say "oh she made a contrast" because you're right, that's what politics is about.

Anytime a candidate is saying "oh we're both good" they're bsing or trying to give the apperance that a supposed fault in their platform does not truly exist.


by world dictator on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Contrast is the key to winning. That means in part saying the other guy isn't as good me or is indeed worse. To the extent people don't get this is the degree to which we tie our hands needlessly. I agree that some negative campaigning is outside of the bounds- ie lying, etc. But no one has claimed this here. Just that she mentioned something Democrats are uncomfortable discussing. I listened to Rachel Meadows tonight try to use FDR's comments about freedom from fear, and I thought maybe she misundertood the point. freedom from fear doesn't come with pretending. It comes with understanding what choices one is making. There is nothing wrong with CLinton saying that she beleives she is the one that people should trust . THe fear that is inappropriate- and the only place I think she did cross the line is the 60 minutes interview, but the next day she realized this and pulled back.


by bruh21 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is "going negative" bad? (none / 0)

There's a big, big assumption in this discussion that "going negative" == making damaging statements about your opponent that are somehow untrue or unfair. This framing is understandable given the country's recent experience with the Republican smear machine, but it fails to make the distinction between hard-hitting ads that that are both true and relevant to the political contest and smear ads that are untrue, deceptive, or are scurrilous personal attacks. By this yardstick, the term "going negative" does not help us draw the line between proper and out-of-bounds political discourse. Thus, I prefer "going sleazy" as a much more useful catchphrase.


by 1arryb on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:03:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Negative campaigning:

It seems to me that the difference between Clinton's 3 a.m. ad and LBJ's daisy ad was fairly minimal.  Reasonable people may differ, which leads nicely into my second point.

Missing Glenn's point:

'Hillary DID NOT "go negative" and it's ridiculous for people to claim otherwise.'

I think that the sort of language used here is exactly what worries Glenn (and me).  We are getting so worked up about this primary that many of us have become entirely uncivil.

Ridiculous
     Deserving of ridicule; foolish; absurd.

It is ridiculous to believe that New York City is not in New York state, that the American flag has fourteen stripes and twenty-eight stars, or that it somehow serves your rational interests to vote for your third choice candidate than your second choice (a case for bounded rationality if ever I have seen one).

However, it is not ridiculous to have a difference of opinions that stems from an ambiguously defined term.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 2)

Well, I will give a couple, though I insist that you understand I am not critical of Clinton for doing so. Our political practices require it.

The 3 a.m. ad was rather negative. Questioning his stance on NAFTA was another. The attacks on empty speeches. The careful rhetoric about whether he is Muslim. The darkening of his image in an ad.

But please, please, I do not want to argue about whether Clinton was too negative. This is about a bigger issue.


by Glenn Smith on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 2)

NAFTA and the denied meeting that was then a meeting about how Obama's position was mis-construed was REAL. The darkening of his image is asinine and I can't believe a respected blog like this one would perpetuate that kind of ridiculousness. And the Muslim thing? Fabricated by the right wing and the media.

And the 3 AM ad? Effective and true.  She didn't insult him. Just made her case for herself.

For some reason, Democrats have ceded national security to Republicans. We shouldn't. And I'm glad for that ad. It was good.

Obama fell apart under 48 HRS of media scrutiny. 48 HRS. What's he going to do when they actually LIKE his opponent?


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Agree 100%. The 3 AM ad was brilliant, and forced people to stop and think about the qualities that are important for a Commander in Chief.

Plus, anyone who thinks John McCain and his band of Rethugs are going to use kid gloves when handling our nominee is mistaken.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Agree 100%. The 3 AM ad was brilliant, and forced people to stop and think about the qualities that are important for a Commander in Chief.

And those people will end up with a candidate who can't play the experience card in November against McCain, who is a giant by comparison.

I think Obama's response was spot on: neither he nor Hillary have ever answered the phone at 3am. When they do, if they do, who's judgement do you want making the decision?


by mattw on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (2.00 / 0)

So, with your logic, better to have the lesser experienced candidate respond to the issue of "competence and experience."

What sense does that make?

We (the Dems) would just be more open to attack because of the lack of that quality in BO?


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One other comment/question I can't resist (none / 0)

If McCain is a "giant by comparison" to Clinton, what is is he (McCain) by camparison to Obama, who has virtually no experience?


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One other comment/question I can't resist (none / 0)

If you run on experience and tout it as your main selling point, you don't want an opponent that has more than you.  If you run on something else, and your opponent runs on experience as their main selling point, you can completely discount their main point.

Now, if you run on something like change, and your own party attacks you on experience, leading to your opponent attacking you on experience, it may be harder to discount.

I believe this is the point people are making.  Now, you can agree or disagree, but it is an argument.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One other comment/question I can't resist (none / 0)

Spot on.  Clinton's claim to experience seems mostly to be predicated on the notion that she had a large voice in her husband's administration.  If this is true, then (at least as far as foreign policy is concerned) one must ask if this is a good thing; I think that his foreign policy record was at best a mixed bag, at worst a case-study in inaction.

To be sure, it was better than the Bushes (and better than John "We'll Be In Iraq 100 Years From Now" McCain's promises to be), but I certainly wouldn't look at it as a model of effective policmaking.


by carloseljefe on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:37:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One other comment/question I can't resist (none / 0)

So, the logic is that Hillary can't sell her strong suit against her Dem opponent (in your words "attacking Obama as his "own party"") because then if he wins the nomination she has somehow hurt his chances against the more experienced nominee in the oopposing party in the GE?

Its circualr logic:  she can't promote herself against her primary opponent because it will hurt that opponent later if he should beat her, so she should just not promote her strong suit at all, thus causing her Dem opponent to beat her in the primary?

This is nonsense ... its the logic of a child ... if you can even call it that.


by plf1953 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:03:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

So the fact that one person does something underhanded makes it okay for someone else to?

"If you stare into the Abyss long enough, the Abyss stares back at you."


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

As has been noted, the story at the time of Obama's denial was that "A senior official from the Obama campaign placed a phone call to Michael Wilson, Canadian Ambassador to the US, to warn him that Obama would be talking tough against NAFTA in the near future, but it would just be empty rhetoric."

That's effectively what was initially reported, and it was 100% false. No one from Obama's campaign contacted anyone. No one placed a phone call. No one talked to Michael Wilson. No one suggested Obama would deceive anyone over NAFTA.

Purely false.

The 3 AM ad - even if true - was still negative. "The politics of fear" is never positive campaigning; as Bill Clinton said, when one politician is telling you to vote your hopes, and the other is telling you to vote your fears, vote for the one selling hope.

Hillary's comment was along the lines of, "Gee, he's not muslim that I know."  Apparently attending Christian prayer breakfast doesn't give her enough reason to say he's not without equivocating.

The darkening of the image is... asinine? Hillary did it, you're saying her ad was asinine? Finally, agreement!  Darkening images to make someone look sinister is a standard propaganda technique. So Hillary is in good company with propaganda giants like Joseph Stalin, but I don't see how you can't call it not negative. (As another way to look at it, if it wasn't to negatively influence viewers, why did she do it?)


by mattw on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why don't you try the truth for a change? (2.00 / 1)

How is the following - verbatim transcript from 60 Minutes - in anyway equivocal?

"You don't believe that Senator Obama's a Muslim?" Kroft asked Sen. Clinton.

"Of course not. I mean, that, you know, there is no basis for that. I take him on the basis of what he says. And, you know, there isn't any reason to doubt that," she replied.

"You said you'd take Senator Obama at his word that he's not...a Muslim. You don't believe that he's...," Kroft said.

"No. No, there is nothing to base that on. As far as I know," she said.

"It's just scurrilous...?" Kroft inquired.

"Look, I have been the target of so many ridiculous rumors, that I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with the kind of rumors that go on all the time," Clinton said."

It is posts like yours, which spread trash and innuendo like the above, that sullies the discourse.


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why don't you try the truth for a change? (none / 0)

The phrasing she used is equivocal.  "As far as I know."  "I'll take him at his word."  If she didn't phrase it carefully with the intent of keeping doubt open in the minds of those listening, then she was simply careless about her phrasing... which seems unlikely.


by PatriotActor on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:24:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why don't you try the truth for a change? (2.00 / 1)

So she must have had some conspiracy with Kroft to be sure he would ask her this asinine gotcha question three times so she could wait to equivocate until the third iteration?

Kroft quite deliberately brought this stupid question up and then pounded away at it in hopes of flustering her into saying something clumsy.  You should be pissed at the media playing its nasty games, not at HRC.


by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why don't you try the truth for a change? (none / 0)

Is that the best you can do? ... if so, you're hopeless.

She categorically stated it wasn't true twice, yet Kroft persisted trying to get her to be equivocal and then she adds "as far as I know."

Then she defends Obama with her last statement commiserating with him that this sort of thngs happens to her too.

What more could she say?


by plf1953 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why don't you try the truth for a change? (none / 0)

He repeated the question exactly because she didn't answer it strongly enough. How can you not see that?


by marcotom on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:58:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why don't you try the truth for a change? (none / 0)

I take this back ... she responded emphatically in Obama's defense 6 times before he egged her into adding the "as far as I know" qualiifier.

1. "Of course not"

  1. "there is no basis for that"
  2. "I take him on the basis of what he says"
  3. "there isn't any reason to doubt that"
  4. "No"
  5. "No, there is nothing to base that on"

Any idiot can see she was answering the questions categorically with a "No."

She only added the qualifier because it appeared - and I'm sure she sensed - that Kroft might have information she didn't that proved Obama was a muslim.

Wouldn't she look like an idiot had she repeatedly denied this on Obama's behalf only to find that someone - Kroft, CBS, 60 Minutes - actually did have info that proved he was?

Now, I'm wondering if they do, in fact, have such info.  Why else would he have drilled her on it like that if he didn't?


by plf1953 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:18:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

And attacks on empty speeches? How is that  negative? He gives speeches. He himself claims they mean so much more than words. She has every right to criticize that stance.


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

I don't see the 3 a.m. ad as negative in the slightest. There was no mention of Obama whatsoever and no specter of disaster if she didn't win. It was simply a question of "who do you trust to answer the call." Many people have taken that meme and spun in Obama's favor. That's equally fair. But I don't see why that ad is negative.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

How about saying McCain and Clinton had experience, and all Obama had was a speech, which followed on the same vein of the 3AM ad?


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:53:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (1.50 / 2)

Sometimes the truth hurts.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:04:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

So it would be fair for him to say "the American people want a canidate who believes in integrity and open government, John McCain can put up his record, I can put my record, Hillary Clinton wont release her records."


by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

He's already implied it several times over.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Sometimes the truth hurts.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

not what she said but whatever - every other word out of McCain's mouth is experience - she was saying how she would counter that and wondering how Obama would counter what McCain would undoubtedly claim.


by NYMARJ on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

The reason why that is a "negative" ad is because it is the same "play on fear" kind of stuff the Republicans have been using for years.  For a democrat to use right wing frames on a primary opponent doesn't sit well with me at all...  This is the democratic party, not the republican party.


by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

Well, thank God that Obama doesn't ever use any right-wing frames then!

Oh.  He does?  But... but.... but...


by wasabi on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

What's the fear? That Obama is going to hang up?


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:31:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

Most people are aware that taking a 3 a.m. phone call is part of the job description of being president. Why should Obama supporters blindly attack that kind of discussion if their argument is that Obama's judgment is superior? Is it because perhaps the job he's running for depends on more than a position he took as a state senator in Springfield?


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Again, you don't get it...

Hillary is running a very republican campaign, using their methodology.  That's ok in the general... I welcome it... but it is NOT cool in a democratic primary.

We are democrats, not republicans!


by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:37:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

No, I don't get your explanation because it apparently doesn't make any sense. Go ahead and call anything you want republican. That doesn't make you correct.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"right on day one" is the same thing (2.00 / 1)

I don't really see how this is more negative than "we need somebody who was right on day one" etc.  


by chiefscribe on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 2)

I appreciate your thoughtful, self-critical, and humble perspective.  All of us could use more humility and self-criticism, particularly in the midst of these kind of high-stakes, high-pressure political campaigns.

Having said that, I agree with some of the other commenters that you undercut your message by communicating your interpretation that Hillary has gone negative and that Barack has not.  You may well believe that, but I'm sure you can understand that supporters of Hillary would see the issue very differently, and that differences of opinion on that make it harder to see your message for what I believe you intended it to be.


by markjay on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

The author never wrote that Obama had not gone negative.  They did say that he made a risky move in not counter-attacking before Texas and Ohio, so he could make an argument that he should be the nominee.  That does not mean he has never gone negative.

The point on honor was that he did not punish someone for the NAFTA bruhaha, which turned out to not be true.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

The NAFTA bruhaha was indeed true, and Obama's response was not "honorable."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

The CBC has completely exonerated Obama as well as the Canadian government, who issued an apology...  It is simply a false story, cooked up by Canadian conservatives to influence our election in their favor.


by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Not true. From today's Canada.com:

[Barack Obama's] remarks were reminiscent of the lyrics from an Oscar-nominated song sung by animated characters in the 1999 South Park film.

"It seems like everything's gone wrong, since Canada came along," the cartoon characters sang. "We must blame them and cause a fuss, before somebody thinks of blaming us."

The "Nafta-gate" episode laid bare some key weaknesses in Obama's campaign.

The Illinois senator and his staff badly misjudged the potential impact of early media reports which said - inaccurately, as it turned out - that an Obama aide spoke directly with Canadian Ambassador Michael Wilson.

When details emerged that Goolsbee actually met with the Chicago consulate, Obama's campaign continued to outright deny the story until the Canadian memo was leaked to the media.

"They got caught, at least, in a misstatement," said Herb Asher, a political scientist at Ohio State University. "The initial response was 'there is nothing to this," Then, of course, there was something to it. That does undermine credibility."

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/ne ws/story.html?id=6a0ad227-2175-4142-8c40 -a21c6e301223&k=46757


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 3)

I suppose I agree with you. Below in another comment I invite everyone to go ahead and visit this by using examples of Obama's tactics. As you note, initiating a conversation about the relative negativity of the two campaigns is of little value. Whatever it has been in the past, from each of them, it is about to get much more negative, from both of them.

The stridency of some of these comments, however, are helping make my point. Yours is not one of those. And I appreciate it.


by Glenn Smith on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

"We're not enemies, we just disagree."  -The Strokes

Thank you, Glenn.  I fear that if we as liberals don't heed your advice, our candidate (whichever one prevails) is doomed to once again go gently into the night.  Given the SC positions likely to open up during the next four years, this would be bad news for us all.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

First the darkening of his image is a joke and it reflects very badly on the BO campaign.  The liberal constant complaint that the other side is rasist is really old and frankly it hurts us and makes us look like whinners.

Second BO has been on HRC about NAFTA for weeks and imho it is nonsense.  He got caught in talking out of both sides of his mouth.  

The 3 am ad says bottom line who has the experience to be president.  Wow that evil Hillary she is really really really evil.  Come on you call that negative campaigning PLEASE.

She nor her campaign has never said he was a muslin and again this was done by twisting her words (a long standing BO campaign trick) unless you expect me to take the word of Drudge over HRC or you could provide some evidence that the HRC campaign is behind any of this.

And the reason BO lost is people were listening and all they heard was how BO is for hope.  Wow so is everyone but what they did not hear is how he plans to do these things.  Hillary didnt win Tuesday night as BO lost and this loss was his own doing.  

He looks like a candidate with a glass jaw (think McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry) and he sat there and lost the day.  You all should be think the stars for what HRC did the last couple of weeks instead of whinning.  This is why the dems loss.

Name democractic candidates that have either won or won the popular vote in a presidental election?  LBJ, Carter, Clinton, Gore.  Now the ones that lost McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry.  Tell me as a dem who just fing wants to win.  Who does BO remind you of.  

And those first four.  The all won OH???

david


by giusd on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Barack Obama reminds me of Bill Clinton.  At least, the Bill Clinton I remember from the early 90's, not the one I have seen lately.  A lot of people say JFK, and I can see that as well, though I was not alive during that time.

Hillary Clinton reminds me of John Kerry and Al Gore(when he was running for President).  Very smart, good handle on policy, not doing well in defining who she is or connecting to people.  I think she is doing better at the second, but for some reason she has completely failed at the first(or succeeded in defining herself as someone I didn't think she wanted to be defined as).  I mean, she is seen as the one that will do anything to win, a true fighter, would steal the nomination if necessary.  This isn't me, this is people around me and the way the media portrays her.

I worry that Obama reminds me of Bill Clinton, because I didn't particularly like what happened to the Democratic Party during Bill's presidency, but...Hillary Clinton is attached to Bill's presidency much more strongly than Obama is.  Also, I love that Obama is embracing the 50 state strategy and aligns with the current strategy of the DNC.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

By the way, I think for some reason her campaign wants to define her that way.  They have put out so many weird things about how they are going to win.  The Super Delegates overturning the pledged delegate leader, stealing pledged delegates, including Michigan and Florida without a revote, arguing that this state or that one don't matter(yes, I know Obama's campaign said the same thing lately, ugh, I hate that, though it hasn't redefined him yet in that same way.), having supporters sue to change the rules of the Nevada Caucuses.  I figured they would try to step away from that view of her.  I know a lot of people who for years accused the Clinton's of being power-hungry, corrupt people with no morals.  I always defended them both(more so Bill, because he was more directly attacked), but now they are playing into that same theme.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:25:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

How so? By refusing to go away when Obama and his surrogates urge them to? Or by winning large states in primaries, where Obama has yet to dominate?

If he's as wonderful as you believe him to be...why so scared of more states voting? Let the rest of the country help decide who the nominee is. Why is that so wrong suddenly?  Why is the meme: HRC should drop out. Just cuz!


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:27:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

No, the meme that her campaign has put out is that "Screw the primary voters, this nomination is ours, and we will get it one way or another".  I didn't say anything about her dropping out.  I said, that her campaign has portrayed her as someone willing to do anything to win.  I don't understand your response.  The media talks about the Clinton's pulling in favors, doing back room deals, their power network, and that they are fighters that never give up.  They talk up these weird statements her campaign advisers make.

I am actually scared of this primary lasting a lot longer, since the candidates will go much more negative.  I don't want McCain as president, and I fear that the two will destroy each other.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There you go again... (2.00 / 1)

If you say it loud and long enough it will be true, is that the way of the Obama world?

"the meme that her campaign has put out is that "Screw the primary voters, this nomination is ours, and we will get it one way or another"."

"I said, that her campaign has portrayed her as someone willing to do anything to win."

Care to back any of this up with some actual first-person quotes from anyone in her campaign?

And another good one ... "the media talks about the Clinton's pulling in favors, doing back room deals, their power network, and that they are fighters that never give up."

Since when does what the media says - again without attribution or quotes - have any significance whatsoever?

I guess only when it supports your personal world view, whether based in reality or not.

And since when is fighting for something you believe in -  particularly one's self - a bad thing that should be condemned?  


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There you go again... (none / 0)

I pointed to times her campaign has put that forward.  Steal pledged delegates.  Super delegates overturn the will of the voters.  These aren't good things.

The media does talk like that.  

NY Mag Essentially saying the same thing I am.
ABC News About tactics


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There you go again... (none / 0)

By the way, I didn't say I agreed with it, I just said it was there.  I don't think the talk of stealing pledged delegates or saying the super delegates will overturn the voters were good ideas.  Even if that was going to happen at some point, there was no reason to say it when they did.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:21:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There you go again... (none / 0)

Okay, enough, completely annoyed by this point since a few people are harassing a poster who wrote an interesting, balanced, insightful comment.  Please read what Tantris actually said:

"Barack Obama reminds me of Bill Clinton.  At least, the Bill Clinton I remember from the early 90's, not the one I have seen lately.  A lot of people say JFK, and I can see that as well, though I was not alive during that time.

Hillary Clinton reminds me of John Kerry and Al Gore(when he was running for President).  Very smart, good handle on policy, not doing well in defining who she is or connecting to people.  I think she is doing better at the second, but for some reason she has completely failed at the first(or succeeded in defining herself as someone I didn't think she wanted to be defined as).  I mean, she is seen as the one that will do anything to win, a true fighter, would steal the nomination if necessary.  This isn't me, this is people around me and the way the media portrays her.

I worry that Obama reminds me of Bill Clinton, because I didn't particularly like what happened to the Democratic Party during Bill's presidency, but...Hillary Clinton is attached to Bill's presidency much more strongly than Obama is.  Also, I love that Obama is embracing the 50 state strategy and aligns with the current strategy of the DNC."

By my reading, she is saying that both candidates possess qualities that she likes, and that both candidates possess qualities that give her pause.  Although Shakespeare may have been a bit more poetic in stating this basic truth of existence (no offense intended, Tantris), it is nevertheless a truth that bears repeating.

Perhaps my reading is incorrect or perhaps the version that I read elided some crucial parts that were in the version that you read.  If not, it seems inherently reasonable to me to suggest that the fact that Obama feels like Bill cuts both ways (before you get starry-eyed and tell me about how perfect the Clinton administration was, please try to recall just how well he played with Congress, both with and without a Dem majority, and how well he hanled Somalia and Rwanda).  

Similarly, HRC is undeniably intelligent, but she is also undeniably (and irrationally) hated by many people who are moderate to slightly conservative.  That doesn't play well in a race against someone who is perceived as moderate (perception is unfortunately not reality in this case, but it may be close enough to it for McCain to win in November), so HRC must do a much better job of defining herself and connecting with people (who do not post on this website) in order to pull it off.

So on balance, it seems like Tantris is doing nothing more than acknowledging the reality of the situation; namely that both candidates have flaws and unanswered questions.  Why the venom?


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There you go again... (none / 0)

Yeah, that is what I was trying to say.  Both candidates have good and bad points.  I did say I favored Obama, because one of the complaints I have heard about him(and have about him myself) is something that is true of Bill Clinton as well.  The DLC'ness and less partisan path he portrays.  I feel Hillary is more wonkish, but I am worried about that because of previous wonkish candidates we have put up.  I think we need to have someone with charisma and wonkishness.  I believe Hillary has begun(in the last few weeks) to do better opening up, from what I have seen.  This is good.  I also believe that, for one reason or another, her character or at least the view of her campaign is not good.  I think they need to fix that.

By the way, I am a guy.


by Tantris on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There you go again... (none / 0)

Have you ever seen Some Like it Hot?  My bad; I have no clue why I made that assumption.  Still, it doesn't change the fact that you were being unfairly flamed for making some reasonable points, so I stand by everything but my pronouns.


by carloseljefe on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:37:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

I also think that this has lead to some of her other problems.  When you portray yourself, accept, or have your campaign portray you as a ruthless fighter that will do anything to win, that is what people see.  So, if you do something smart politically, people see you being ruthless.  If your opponent isn't portrayed that way, and they do the same thing, they are given the benefit of the doubt.  The media and talking heads have been doing this for a while.  The so-called media bias.  The image does help Clinton as well though.  Whereas another candidate would have been counted out for her losses, they believe she is a ruthless fighter and will do anything to win, and still has a chance.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

OK,  

BO political views are very close to McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, and Kerry.  The are all put foward a NE liberal idiology with much less appeal outside of the coasts.  They all lost what we all refer to as Reagan democrats.  Working folk just getting by (earning less than 40k), older married women, and now older but not younger latino's.

That is what you saw last night in OH.  It along with PA are prime Reagan democractic states and BO got clocked and he will not win OH in the general.  LBJ, Carter, Clinton, and Gore are all southern's and represent working class moderates that NE liberals demeanly refer to as blue dogs.

The netroots (who is also consider myself) think it is only about who is with us and who isn't.  And for the record i am on the monthly DNC donation list.  I totally support dean and the 50 state model but imho that model only works for congress.  

The dkos crowd constantly demeans HRC for her 269 + 1 model but let me tell you the GOP has been doing this and they are kicking our ass.  For president i totally support the 269 + 1 and you know why.  i am sick of fing losing and if we have to use the 269 + 1 that is OK with me.

david


by giusd on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are very close on ideology.  Perhaps, if you mean the vibe they put off, I could maybe buy that.  Their policies are very close to one another.  Their plans are close to each other's.

They both also have core Democratic Groups that vote for them.  They are also looked on favorably by most Democrats.

What I see in Ohio is that Obama was catching up, but got knocked down in about 4 ways in one week.  Yeah, whoever gets the nomination is going to have to work to pull all the parts of the party back together.  I just hope we haven't ripped them too far asunder.


by Tantris on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

The problem with 269+1 strategy is that it has failed for us time and time again...  It also has allowed Republicans to pick up downticket seats to solidify congress for them.  In 2004, we lost 3 senators a good chunk of congress and the presidency because of this strategy...  Why would anyone suggest that the third time it will work, when it has failed so many times before.

As for political ideology, if the appeal was limited to the coasts, then we probably wouldn't be seeing so many Obamicans around.  One of the criticisms from the Clinton camp is that he's TOO conservative...  so, I don't buy that argument.


by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results."


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I, like many others here, disagree Glenn. (2.00 / 0)

You make an ugly and unfounded "pronouncement" about Hillary having gone negative and you want to let that remain as the "truth" or conventional wisdom and then want to change the subject rather than support your remarks.

It is just this sort of underhanded tactic that has sullied the discourse.

Merely making this remark is a negative attack in itself, but you attempt to immunize yourself with your holier than thou remarks about what a great and ethical guy Obama is by comparison - yes, and because you noiticed this 1) it must be true and 2) it makes you feel better about yourself - and how we (meaning all of us out here on the internets) need to elevate our thinking and discourse.

Why don't you really give it a try, Glenn.


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Respectfully No! (none / 0)

Thank you Glenn for your post. But, respectfully, it does a disservice to our system of government--it is harmful to our system of government--it damages our cohesion as a polity--to let this kind of Rovian politics continue to flourish in our country.

I too am an Obama supporter but I would abandon him in a second if he were pursuing dishonest tactics like this. The political techniques being used by the Clinton campaign are unacceptable if you wish to put our country first. These politics exist because we accept them and use them but they are not inevitable. Winning at any price should not be accepted or admired.


by anothergreenbus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:18:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Respectfully No! (none / 0)

I'm not certain how we disagree.


by Glenn Smith on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama hasn't gone negative? (2.00 / 2)

But Glenn, you don't fault Clinton for going "negative" but you act like Obama hasn't.

1) Sending out mailers blaming her for NAFTA even after Newsweek, hardly a pro Clinton magazine, said the quote was false. Even after David Gergen, who was there, said it wasn't true. Even after a NYT article said she opposed it.

2) The Harry and Louise health care ad, that he got a huge pass on from the media/lazy blogosphere. Remember that ad was like the 90's version of swift boating.

3) Saying that Clinton's Health Care mandate would result in her going after your wages. (Whose wages does Obama's Children mandate go after?)

Is this not negative campaigning? You might agree with it but spare me this fable that Obama hasn't gone negative.


by world dictator on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Darkening of the opponent's image is a standard tactic in political campaigns. It's like displaying an unflattering photo of them in your campaign literature. You want them to look dull and uninspiring, not bright and inspiring. It has nothing to do with race.

The Muslim rhetoric is a non-story.

The 3 AM ad was negative, but fair.  McCain is going to have far worse.


by wayward on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:29:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

You don't think arguing he is unqualifed to be CIC is "negative?"  As the diarist noted, HRC has every right to make such arguments.  Obama is a big boy and politics is a contact sport.  But lets not pretend that's not a negative campaign tactic.  Obviously it is.  


by HSTruman on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

You're confusing anything that shows their distinctions to be negative simply because they come from Hillary. How is it negative to make your case that you would be a better CIC than your opponent. He's made the same argument with the "judgement" angle about the war vote. That's his right and I don't consider it negative. I consider it smart. And drawing distinctions. Seriously? They're running for POTUS and we're going to say she's going negative because she's saying "I think I would make a better POTUS for 1,2,3."

Besides all that, it's insulting that whenever Obama loses, it's because of Clinton's negativity. Maybe he just isn't making a good case to the voters in these particular states.

His losses can't all be blamed on Hillary, you know. He can blame himself since he obviously failed to make the argument he wanted.


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

there is a difference between saying "I would be better at the job" and saying "He is not capable of the job."

She pracitcally said in a speech last week that McCain would be a better President than Obama, and anyone who didn't get that impression from what she said is either lying or delusional.

It IS negative and it is about to get more negative...and I hope Obama fires back. I will be happy to support either candidate in the GE...but to pretend she hasn't gone negative just because you support her is crazy.


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 2)

See, there you go misquoting and outright lying. She never said EVER that McCain would be a better president. She said he would tout his experience. And uh, he will. If Obama thinks otherwise, he's got quite the surprise coming.  His wife said Hillary isn't fit to be President because she couldn't take care of her own house. C'mon now.  Let's not be liars now.


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

she didn't say he would tout it SHE touted it. And while she didn't say outright he would be a better President she certainly implied it (and if she didn't mean to imply it she would have clarified.)


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

Of course she didn't. But again, you're coming at it from that side and I can see why you would refuse to believe her actual statement over rhetoric and blogosphere gossip to the contrary. She said McCain will tout his experience. And again, her certainly will. It's all the old man has. And everything Obama doesn't.


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Let me clue you in: I WATCHED THE SPEECH. I SAW THE FOOTAGE. I HEARD WHAT SHE SAID. Just because I don't have your view of things doesn't mean I am blinded by other people- and just because I disagree with your choice of candidates doesn't give you the right to disrespect me. Hillary's supporters do not have a monopoly on the truth. Get off your F'n high-horse.


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

WHY DON'T YOU get off your "f'n" (1.00 / 1)

high horse and actually verify your facts before you post them.

Will save every body time having to do that for you.

You've heard of "the google" haven't you?


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What She Said (2.00 / 1)

Verbatim remark by Clinton re: "experience"

"He's [John McCain's] never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

She said McCain would tout it.

She's making the "experience" argument for herself, not McCain, though it certainly works as well for him in the GE against Obama.

For godsakes, McCain IS already touting it as his defining quality as compared to Obama's 3 years in the senate.

She merely made a factual statement that Obamaphiles find wanting for their candidate.

That one speech in October 2002 is his self-described DEFINING MOMENT; that's all he can offer.

Evidently the truth does hurt.


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

and I was pissed as hell when Michelle Obama said that...but that doesn't excuse Hillary doing the same kind of things.. or Bill's comments comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson (and don't even try to say that wasn't the intention if it weren't than he wouldn't have brought it up.)


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 2)

This is a pointless discussion.  By your standard, nothing is "negative."      

Really, it doesn't matter anyway.  Hillary has every right to "throw the kitchen sink" at Obama, as she put it.  The GOP certainly will in the General anyway.  He's a pro and will deal with it now and against McCain later.  Negative attacks are just part of politics, which is fine.    


by HSTruman on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 2)

I gave you a 2 because yo uget it right. It's silly to say that she didnt' go negative, but its also silly to say that negative is a bad thing.  I think


by bruh21 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

Well said.  I agree.


by HSTruman on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

The 3 a.m. advertisement was a negative ad saying "with me and mccain you get years of experience; with him you get 1 speech" is going negative.

There being a kernel of truth to the statement doesn't make it any less negative. I have no problem with Hillary touting her experience; I have a HUGE problem with her touting McCain's and I have a problem with her denigrating Obama's.

It is completely possible to point out this flaw in his candidacy without being petty and viscious about it. Hillary is practically suggesting he doesn't have a right to be in the race and it should be beneath her to argue in that way.

But as the diarist points out- negative politics works. So I accept it and I expect more of it. I think the gloves are really about to come off now- and a small part of me is glad that it is going to happen in my state, Pennsylvania.


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

It was more negative from Obama's side, but the Clinton rules, led every media outlet to ignore them.


by devil on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is the same bs that Bush used (1.50 / 2)

Hillary has learned well for meister Rove.

Remember the "Liberal media elite"

What is it now the Obama media elite

Hillary is a professional victim - we need a president - she is not qualified.


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:18:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Listening comes first --- you might wan to try it (none / 0)

Are you capable of adding something substantive to the discussion or do you only do insults?


by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The he wants to bomb Pakistan comment (2.00 / 1)

The picture of him in traditional garb

The "shame on you" speech

The NAFTA gate - which I'm sure she orchestrated

Her posing as the victim once again saying the press is unfair - actually her corporate friends at CNN, FOX and NBC made sure their anchors trashed Obama.

Her email about Choice to NH women which was complete fraud

The red phone ad

Her campaign has been about fear not about competency.

What has Hillary accomplished in 35 years - I can't think of one thing - can you name one thing she has done?


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (none / 0)

-running with a phony story about the back-channel NAFTA deal;
-Bringing up Rezko when there is little to be said or done that Obama hasn't already;
-Darkening his picture in an ad;
-Going with baseless politics of fear in an ad plagarized from the Mondale campaign;
-Mocking Obama's oratory skill with the "heavans will open" schtick;
-Claiming his health care flyer is false when it is accurate;
-complaining about bad press (including in newspapers that have endorsed her!)

That should be enough for now -- but none of it is anything to be proud of.

As for the line "I am not complaining out it. It worked" -- that misses the obvious cost to such strategies -- the alienation of needed voters in the general, if Hillary should come back to win the nomination.


Take back the Court!
by NewHavenDave on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

How about this?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3 /5/131156/5021/187/469677


by MNPundit on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:45:07 PM EST

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

But see Glenn, you lose your argument when you refuse to see that Obama has been negative as well.

And with that goes your credibility. You tout his superior "honor" of not going negative when it's what he's been doing since he got his arse handed to him in NH.

But hey, you're competitive. So am I. At least my blinders aren't on.


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:45:07 PM EST

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

To bring our focus to the larger problem, here, I will stipulate that Obama has also been negative. I believe he will get even more negative. I will grant credibility to your observation, and ask that you grant me the same.


by Glenn Smith on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 0)

But here you say:

I am assuming Obama held back before March 4 because he thought he could eke out a victory in Texas and enhance his arguments with super delegates that Clinton, by attacking him, was threatening Democrats' chances for victory in November.

You claim Obama is holding back and has not gone negative. It's misleading and simply wrong.


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics, Honor, Respect: A Confession (2.00 / 1)

There are levels of negativity.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]